5. Chris "CJ" Johnston (User Experience @ Enhance, Player One Podcast)
Download MP3That was probably the point where I was like, this you know, at that ice cream parlor, even on that game, seeing that secret was the point where I was like, oh, man. Video games are awesome, and I am going to play them forever.
Kyle Starr:Hello, and welcome to Why Button, the podcast that asks why we care about video games. I'm your host, Kyle Starr.
Kyle Starr:On this show, I interview creators, enthusiasts, journalists, and media personalities about their origins with video games, what keeps them so interested in the medium, and what excites them about the future.
Kyle Starr:On this episode, I chat with Chris Johnston, better known as CJ. CJ has a storied career from Electronic Gaming Monthly, or EGM, to Adult Swim, to his current work at Enhanced, developers of Rez, Tetris Effect, and their latest game, Humanity — a Lemmings like where you play as a dog controlling herds of humans through puzzles, which is the way the world ought to be. Humanity was just recently released on Playstations 4, 5, VR, VR2, and Steam.
Kyle Starr:I loved chatting with CJ about his break into games journalism through a self published zine and the various social aspects of video games. There's a lot of industry history and knowledge in this one. I hope you enjoy it.
Kyle Starr:Chris Johnston, CJ, welcome to Y Button.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Thank you for having me, Kyle. It's great to be here.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. We go, I guess, quote, unquote, go back a ways, on Twitter, now Mastodon, just kind of bantering back and forth, liking each other's tweets and stuff, but I've never really had an official, you know, opportunity to to chat. And so I figured why not do it through this podcast? I think you might have some pretty good perspective on why we care about video games and, and so why not have you on the show?
Kyle Starr:Well, CJ, for those who don't know you, can you give a brief background of yourself and then what you're currently up to?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Sure. Well, I'm a lifelong video gamer, and I, back in the mid nineties, got my dream job as a video game journalist at, Electronic Gaming Monthly Magazine, which was, like, the dream. It was, like, the top gaming magazine in the nineties. And from there, I wrote about video games. I was the news editor for a few years, got to review games, and then I went into the development side of games and got a job initially doing Flash games at Adult Swim, which which is Turner Broadcasting's sort of Cartoon Network's late night programming block.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:They wanted to do games, and I thought, oh, that, you know, that would be an interesting thing to do. Flash was very nascent, and there was a lot of, like, fun indie stuff happening there. And I loved that style, and the games that are coming out of that scene. And at Adult Swim, when we started doing Flash games, but then that quickly morphed into doing mobile games for iPhone and iPad. And then, when Steam sort of started opening up that storefront, we started doing PC games.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Then as consoles opened up, we started doing console games, and, things just kinda snowballed from there. And then as that kind of ended, I took some time off for a little while and then joined Enhance, which is Tetsuya Mizoguchi's company, and they do Tetris Effect and Luminez and started doing user testing for a little puzzle game called humanity, which comes out in a few weeks now, as we talk. So, yeah, kind of a that's that's the short version of my ride.
Kyle Starr:I'm gonna dig into some of that, because that I mean, just starting with EGM. It's funny. I the the, episode I did just prior to this one was with Robert Ashley. He runs the podcast, A Life Well Wasted. Are you familiar with the show?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Kyle Starr:The first episode of that show is about the death of EGM. And so I find it interesting, and this was not by, design, but I find it interesting time that you were at at the magazine?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:No. I didn't. I worked there. I started there in 1994 and worked there for a few months. I was still in high school at the time, and that kinda gives you an idea of where most video game magazines in the mid nineties found their writers, and then went back, full time in 96.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:So, from 96 to 2004 is when I worked there. So I wasn't wasn't there for the end. I was there for sort of the changing of the guard and a change in what video game magazines did from just being screenshots and tips to being more journalistic and, you know, the rise of the Internet where, you know, people would scan your screenshots and post them immediately. So right around that time, like, 2,004 is, when I when I left, and I did, jump to an anime magazine at the time. So I did.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I worked at an anime magazine for 3 years as that sort of DVD market was unfortunately in decline due to Internet streaming, but, it was a fun a fun ride as well.
Kyle Starr:You you mentioned that that shift in I guess, the Internet comes along, and if you're working at a games magazine, you just mentioned that, you know, folks would just post screenshots that are in the magazine. And then, obviously, we transitioned fully, completely, fortunately, unfortunately, to what it is today. But was that sort of an impetus for leaving? Were there other reasons for getting out of EGM?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:There were other reasons. I felt burnt out at the time. Like, when you are surrounded by games, even though I love video games, even though I've loved video games for a long time, I felt like I kinda done all that I wanted to hear, and maybe it was time for a new challenge. So, you know, one of my other passions was anime, and video games and anime go hand in hand a lot of the time. Indeed.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And, so when when that opportunity came up, I jumped at it. Chance to do something totally new.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. I think that's important to note too. You you mentioned getting going to EGM to begin with as a childhood dream. I think a lot of folks who were or at least in in our age range, and there may be a a bit of an age gap here, not entirely sure, but I think we're of a generation where magazines gaming magazines were very prevalent to us. Mhmm.
Kyle Starr:And the dream of working at or writing for a magazine, for me, even it extended into the Internet as well, like writing for a website, whether it was IGN or Polygon or something like that, you know, on the newer side. But that was sort of the dream I had in my head that, like, I get to play video games all day and write about them and and, you know, become, I don't know, not famous, but, like, become somebody in that in that world and that seemed incredibly exciting. Mhmm. What was it I mean, maybe you align with that, but what was it about EGM or mag writing for magazines, you know, to begin with? What was that the reason why that was a dream for you?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Well, I always loved video games and thought, you know, it'd be fun to do that for work. But I am terrible at programming, terrible at math. I can't draw. I'm not an artist or anything. So I thought, like, what what could I do in this industry?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And I read video game magazines and thought, well, that's a job. Like, writing reviews of video games is a thing, so I thought I could do that. And back in 1991, there was a magazine called Video Games and Computer Entertainment, and that that magazine had a column in the back written by Arnie Katz. It was all about fanzines and video game fanzines. And I read that column and was like, well, heck.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I could do that. Right? Like, I could I could make a newsletter or a zine, and that could be my start. And so, yeah, I was 13, 14 years old at the time and thought, let's do this thing. I had my Apple 2gs.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I had FredWriter as my word processor and, printed it out on an old ImageWriter and, like, cut and pasted things and copied it off and sent it out to people. And that was kind of where things started. I began, like, sort of mimicking the writing that I was reading in video game magazines, and it just kind of went from there. Like, I wrote what I thought people would be interested in reading or that I would wanna read about as a fan, and I sent copies of that zine to Arnie Katz and all of the other magazines that were around. So I sent a copy to Steve Harris, who's the the editor in chief of VGM.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I sent 1, I think, to GameFan and GamePro as well, just, you know, kind of on a lark. But then, EGM was located in the town right next to me growing up, so that was a bit of a lucky a lucky break there because they, they were interested in having me write for them for a while, actually, but I wasn't of working age yet during that time. So
Kyle Starr:You're getting ahead of it, though. You're building that resume, you know, so to speak, I guess.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:That's right. That's right. And I was just having fun, really. Like, it was fun to get into that scene and and meet people, some of whom are still in the industry today because, like, Chris Koehler also did a zine at the time called Video Zone, and we got to know each other back then as well. So and there are a couple of people who are still kind of peripheral around the industry that that did zines at that time.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Cliff Bleszinski did a zine as well. So it was very, it was it was its own sort of fun underground thing at the time.
Kyle Starr:You mentioned this again, not by design by any means, but you mentioned video game and computer?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Video games and computer entertainment. Yeah.
Kyle Starr:Video games and computer entertainment. Hold on one second. I might I'll edit this part out of the podcast, but I'm I'm cure I might actually have a copy. Hold on. Okay.
Kyle Starr:So I subscribed to the video game history, foundation. Yeah. Their their subscription service to send you old retro games and listener, if you I'll put a note, a link in the show notes, but it's it's worth checking out. Magazines keep coming up on this show, and I think, people ought to check it out. But game fan, game fan, I swear I had one of the Oh,
Chris "CJ" Johnston:there you go.
Kyle Starr:There it is. I do have a video games and computer entertainment magazine. Yeah. Amazing. Do you remember if you had that issue?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I'm sure I did. I think if that's pre 91, that was before my sort of eureka moment. But, but, yeah, I definitely had that that issue.
Kyle Starr:Are video games getting too gory? From 91. That's hilarious. I didn't look that up when when I had Robert on the show, but I had it in the back of my mind, like, I might actually have one of those. And then you you sort of also mentioned with zines and whatnot, there was a we when I was talking with Robert, and again, when you hear that episode, if if you're listening to the show, well, we go on a a couple tangents about music.
Kyle Starr:And it's funny. The zines were very prevalent in the music world as well, like punk rock world and whatnot. Yeah. And it's funny for you to say that here with games. That's not something I was aware of.
Kyle Starr:Can you describe what that zine was? What what was what was in it? What was it like? Like, what were you actually trying to other than just your writing and mimicking the writers that you that you like. Like, did you have access to exclusive games?
Kyle Starr:Were you just reviewing the stuff that you had on hand to play? Like, what was in some of those zines, and how many of them might might have you, you know, you might might have had you put out?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:The first one I did was called The Bombardier, and it's because I liked that word.
Kyle Starr:And every good writer's trick is, I like the word. So I like the word.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I'm using it. Yeah. And we had a Japanese bookstore in the area too that I got, like, an issue of Famitsu from. Famitsu is like their their weekly at the time, it was weekly, video game magazine. And I cut pictures out of it and screenshots out of it.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And like I said, on the Apple 2gs using a very simple AIS hardware down the street, to wherever had a copy machine, whether it was the Ace Hardware down the street or or Kinko's or Office Depot and, you know, copied a few pages off and sent those out. And initially, it was just very simplistic stuff. And then, like, through the sort of zine community, I ended up meeting some other folks in the Chicago area who are also doing the same kind of thing, and we formed a zine called Paradox, and that was still on the Apple 2gs using, like, a more a more complex desktop publishing thing and printed out using, like, an inkjet printer and still kind of the same sort of cut and paste kind of thing some some of the time. But, yeah, it was very low rent.
Kyle Starr:Oh, yeah.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And I did probably more than a dozen issues of of Paradox, and that lasted sort of into my high school career as well. And I took a printing class in, like, a graphic it was called, like, graphic design and printing. And back then, it was like using desktop publishing. But then also we had printing presses in that area of the school where, you know, we'd work on things like dance flyers or, like, somebody's running for student council, and we'd do posters for them. And then I did a, an issue of Paradox where it was 2 color like, 2 colors on the cover using this sort of, yeah, screen process and actually, like, printed it out on 11 by 17 paper and folded it.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And, like, it was really nice, but it was, like, very handmade and different than than just copying it off at Office Depot. So it kind of, ran the gamut from very simplistic stuff to more complicated printing jobs.
Kyle Starr:Nice. And what was your distribution like? Like, were you did you have folks that were you were mailing this to, or were you just distributing around high school, around your town?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Initially, just around the town, and then that video games and computer entertainment column had a, an address. You could send a self a self addressed stamped envelope to, this address and get, like, a list of people who did zines, and you could put yourself on that list as well. So I did that. And then people would I I eventually got a write up in video games and computer entertainment, actually. So then people sent me break
Kyle Starr:right there.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. It was a big a huge break, and, it was only, like, a dollar was what I was charging people for, for the zine. It was more about it was almost entirely about the enjoyment of putting it together than it was any sort of money making operation, kinda like podcasting.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. Just like this podcast, honestly. I'm not not gonna make a dime from this, I am sure, but I am enjoying doing it. Yes. Exactly.
Kyle Starr:I got it.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Exactly. And I probably had, like, a a couple 100 subscribers, towards the end of it. Yeah. I got a cease and desist letter from GamePro Magazine.
Kyle Starr:That's when you know you've made it.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:That's that's
Kyle Starr:the sign.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yes. We had done, we did a a parody cover of, GamePro for one of our issues, and it was, what if there were Disney characters in Street Fighter 2? So it was like a very similar cover to one of their Streetfighter covers but with Disney characters. And then, that issue got scanned and put in a magazine, and GamePro's lawyers saw it and sent sent through his cease and desist as if we were gonna do that every single issue, try to look like GamePro. Pro.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:It was just a one off sort of joke thing, but, but that was fun.
Kyle Starr:Nice. To, to fast forward a little bit now, so I I am curious about your transition from from magazines, from, you know, EGM and the anime magazine to actually working at a developer. I mean, you mentioned earlier that you wanted to work in games, but didn't know what angle that would take and writing seemed like to be the the the most, viable option. Not an artist, not an engineer. So you went that route with magazines, but then all of a sudden you do find yourself working at studios and with end game developers
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah.
Kyle Starr:In various capacities. We'll talk about that too. I'm curious what that transition was like for you.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:It was actually very natural because working on a magazine, I was used to due dates and deadlines and getting, you know, working with freelancers and getting content in on time and having calls about feedback. And so transitioning into the production side is actually very natural. Like, it was very similar, and we were working with at Adult Swim, we were working with indie devs who you know, maybe it was 1 or 2 people who were doing the game development, and I was I was if we were working with them, I was already a huge fan of their content, whether it was on, like, Newgrounds or or armor games. So I already, like, knew they knew how to make a game. So and when they would deliver builds, I would give them qualitative feedback, like, on the design or control or options or or interface, things like that.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And it felt like doing a video game review. It felt like what I was doing for the years prior. Like, it didn't feel too different. I was just doing in a in a different capacity. So it was actually a very smooth transition.
Kyle Starr:What what was your what was your title at at Adult Swim? You might have mentioned it, and I might have missed it. But
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I initially started as a games producer and then eventually became director of games creative by the end. So I was there for 11 years, so did a lot of different things.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. I asked because this is not Mhmm. But there are a lot of folks that I think might myself included, you know, just to put it out there, who have always dreamed of working in games but don't necessarily understand how they would fit, working in games, other than writing for them. I think that's where a lot of people kind of start and think that writing for, a magazine or or a website is the only way in. Yeah.
Kyle Starr:So to hear you talk about your, you know, direction and that that pivot from not even pivot, the transition from games writing and into, you know, working at Adult Swim and that being so close closely related is fascinating.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. It wasn't as different as I thought it was gonna be, quite honest. Well, we were starting with Flash games, and I felt like that was, like, an easy way to start. Like, I don't think the transition would have been as easy if I'd gone from magazine editor to working at Microsoft or working at Nintendo. Like, I think that would have been a much different case.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:When
Kyle Starr:you were at Adult Swim, were there notable releases that you worked on? Some of your maybe favorite favorite titles that you, worked on or moments at Adult Swim?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. You know, I got to work with a lot of really interesting folks. I worked with Flambier. I worked with, Maddie Thorson, who's the creator of Celeste, and did a game called Robot Unicorn Attack, which became kind of
Kyle Starr:a huge That's with the erasure soundtrack. Right?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:With the erasure song. Yeah. That was an amazing experience. Worked on amateur surgeon was one of the mobile games that we worked on. Did 3 of those.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And, later on, I got to work with Double Fine, which was also a dream on a game called Headlander
Kyle Starr:Yep.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:That unfortunately kinda bombed, but it was a great experience. It was a great project, and, I I loved working with Double Fine. So
Kyle Starr:They seem like such a cool group of folks to work with. I'm I'm almost finished with the, the large documentary that came out, about Psychonauts 2. And I mean, I sure. I'm sure it's challenging at any studio and you're going to have personality conflicts and all that stuff. But, I mean, on the whole, it just seemed like such a good group of folks, you know, great hearts, great minds, great leadership in Tim and, you know, I can't imagine, like, how cool that experience was.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:It was a dream. I had to pinch myself that I was working on a game with Double Fine, and, yeah, it was it was great.
Kyle Starr:So transitioning now into, your your current work at Enhance. Mhmm. I I think the big right now, actually, you you all are are gearing up for, I think, a pretty big release, coming out in Humanity. That that game looks wild and I, you know, it's no different than I think any of the other games that Enhance has has put out, but, sort of like a Lemmings esque. There's something very dark about it.
Kyle Starr:I can't put my finger on, like, just controlling all these mindless people. It's almost a little has a little bit of a, like, an inside vibe to it, and the fact that there's just like these, you know, again, mindless folks wandering around. But, how have you found your time at Enhance, if you can say?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I love working at Enhance. I, and this is another I feel so lucky to have had, like, so many dream jobs in in my career. Like, sometimes I pinch myself. Like, I can't believe it that I'm working with such amazing people. And, when the enhanced opportunity came up, I jumped at that.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I was like, yes. I definitely wanna work on whatever you got, Tetris Effect, Luminess, whatever you're doing. I wanna be a part of that because that sounds amazing. And, you know, it's sort of a it's a small operation. It's a small shop.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:It's an indie, really. And I inch have always enjoyed working with indie developers and thought this is this is perfect. Yeah.
Kyle Starr:Did did they come calling for you, or did you go after them?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:They did. They came calling, and they were working on humanity. And humanity is an action puzzle game, and it's sort of broken down by stages. And that kind of a game is very difficult to playtest and, like, get feedback on because once you've figured out the puzzle, you're no longer a good tester. Right?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And so they were looking for somebody who could run user tests for humanity and, and give feedback. And I jumped at that chance and, yeah, ran user testing on humanity and, like, ran people through the game. I've watched dozens of people go through the game and recorded their gameplay and, you know, gave feedback, and, hopefully, it's gonna be a better game for all of that. And some of that feedback has certainly influenced the design choices of the development of the game. So, yeah, I I feel I feel lucky.
Kyle Starr:It it that looking at just the trailers of humanity, I haven't played any of the demos or anything like that. It actually came up. Christian mentioned it on the on the first episode of the show. It's one of the games he's really looking forward to and loved the experience. But it seems like looking at it, there's an element of you can play through these puzzles, and then there's also an element of, like, games creation sandbox type of aspect to it.
Kyle Starr:I imagine and I don't know if your role is directly associated with QA, but QA ing or even working through the user experience of something like that seems like a near impossible feat. And having the same sort of anxiety spike when I, when I watch the latest Breath of the Wild 2 trailer or Breath of the Wild 2, still calling it that, Tears of the Kingdom trailer. It like, looking at all the different possibilities and be like, how do you survive as a QA tester or anybody who's trying to build this experience that seems incredibly Yeah. And I wanna say, yeah, it's really hard.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. And I wanna say, yeah, it's really hard. Harder than I think the development team even imagined. You know, a lot of that stuff was sort of going on before I joined the company, but they created, like, the user generated content piece of it, stage creator piece of it, were the tools they were using to build levels themselves. So they sort of had something there, the framework of something, and then it took, certainly a massive a massive amount of work to, like, make that something that could be user facing as well, and I think they did a fantastic job.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I mostly gave feedback on the finished stages, not so much the stage creator, but, you know, during the last bits of development, there's been a lot of QA going on. Enhance has a really awesome community of Discord moderators that are that are really, like, instrumental in, like, doing some of the final work on that. They're trying to break it actively. And we ran a couple betas where people were trying to break it actively as well, and that that has been fun to watch. But, but it's it's turned out really well.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Like, it is a herculean task. Like, it
Kyle Starr:Yeah. Indeed.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Is way more complicated than we even thought, and especially the user generated content piece, like making a browser that people can look through levels and then moderate that content too because you know people are gonna make offensive stuff. Sure. That's a great point. It's been, like, years of, like, walking through, okay. Well, what do we do if this happens?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:What do we do if that happens? Like, it's, it's quite an effort.
Kyle Starr:So that brings us up to speed today. I think on the side too, not not only your professional and you can call it maybe professional too, but you also are the the host of a of a podcast, player 1 podcast. That podcast has been going on since 2006. Y'all are almost at 800 episodes?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Almost at 900 now.
Kyle Starr:Oh my gosh. Up to 900. Well, thank you for the correction. Jeez.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:850 something at this point. Yeah.
Kyle Starr:Have you been on that show the whole time? Did did you start it?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I started it. Yeah. Wow. I started it with another guy from EGM, Greg Seward. And at the time, we lived in different places in the US.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Like, I had gone to Texas to work on the anime magazine, and he was in North Carolina
Kyle Starr:at the
Chris "CJ" Johnston:time working on, Robotech Games. And we would play online multiplayer games together all the time and talk over Xbox live and thought this was this was at a time where, like, one up yours was going on, and there were a couple video game podcasts. And we were like, you know, we could do that. Like, we sit here on Xbox live and chat about games. Like, why don't we just record that and and put that out in case anyone's interested in listening?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And then, basically, that's what we did. We used, SOCOM headsets that we got, you know, free with the PS 2 game and started recording it. And we started that in 2006, and I think we've only missed something like 3 weeks over the entire run of episodes. We've done it every week. Yeah.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:So
Kyle Starr:That is impressive.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. Incredible.
Kyle Starr:Will you keep it going in another another, what, 3 years to hit your 20, 20 year mark? Probably. Gas in the tank? Okay.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. I think so. I mean, I I think with our show, it's interesting because we're all friends, and we are all former coworkers. And we just use the podcast as an excuse to hop on and talk about games and catch up with each other. So that's really we record it, sure, and we release it, but that anybody's listening is sort of a secondary thing.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. Well, anybody listening to this can see that you are or here rather that you, you know, are emphatic about games. It's it's something that, you know, has been a massive part of your life since even I mean, from what I can tell so far, and I imagine it's even before then, but, like, high school, pre high school with the zine and whatnot all the way through to today. It is it is your life, more or less. I'm sure.
Kyle Starr:I mean, that's not entirely true. I'm sure you've got a lot of other things going on in your life, but it is a big, big part of your life. You have fulfilled a dream, a childhood dream of working in the space in various capacities, which is incredible. Congratulations. But I'm really curious about sort of where it all started.
Kyle Starr:Like, what was that first experience with a game that sort of triggered this for you, or or where did you get this thought that this is sort of how what I want to pursue at such an early age?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. Well, my first experience with video games was at an ice cream parlor called the Purple Cow in on the south side of Chicago, and my family would go there, you know, a weekend, a month maybe. I don't know. Like, whenever there was good grades to celebrate or, like, some someone wanted ice cream, we would go and get ice cream, or there was a birthday. This place did birthdays too, and they had arcade games in this ice cream parlor as many establishments did back in the early eighties.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And they had, like, a Donkey Kong machine, a Popeye machine, Star Wars, and they had Crystal Castles. And that was like where I got into games. It was at that ice cream parlor putting quarters in and playing. And there was one weekend we went, and, I played the Crystal Castles game. That's a game where you use a trackball, and you're kind of collecting these gems in each stage and avoiding enemies.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And it's sort of a isometric 3 quarters perspective and very interesting looking game. And I was terrible at it, but there was another person there who was, like, awesome at it. And this person, like, they were getting so far in this game, and I was just in awe of that. Right? And then they showed me this trick to skip levels.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Cheers. I was like, oh, alright. There's a level skip trick. This is fantastic. So, yeah, he showed me, like, this area of the the stage where you could, like, go behind the geometry and, like, get to a warp that would warp you, like, 10 stages, 20 stages ahead.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And so that was probably the point where I was like, this, you know, at that ice cream parlor, even on that game, seeing that secret was the point where I was like, oh, man. Video games are awesome, and I am going to play them forever. Yeah. I don't even know how this person knew how to do that, but, but they did. Man, maybe I mean, there were video game magazines at the time.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Maybe it was in something like that.
Kyle Starr:But, magazine and word-of-mouth and stuff gets around. Did you know you could go behind the go behind this wall and get to level 20? You could save all your quarters.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I know. I know. It's crazy.
Kyle Starr:And so from that moment and I have to say too, flashing back to the the arcades with trackballs, those things always pinch my hands in the trackball. I hated that. Oh, it was the worst.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. That was bad.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. I mean, we've we've definitely bettered our most of our input devices, I think. We don't ever need to go back to track balls.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I don't think so. No. I would not prefer a track ball.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. So that's your first, like, core sort of memory of of really getting into games and seeing somebody else progress and opening your eyes to what's possible, what's possible here. From Crystal Castles, are there, you know what are maybe a handful of games that you maybe had some of those other moments in, that that moment of awe or just eye opening, throughout your life? Could be when you were a were a kid and getting you into this, into this world or even at a professional level?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. I think I'll start with Super Mario Brothers, of course. You know, from the time I played Crystal Castles to Super Mario Brothers, the whole video game market crash thing happened. And there was a time where or a couple of years where I really didn't play video games and focused on computers instead. But I saw Super Mario Brothers first at a friend's house.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I was over there for a Cub Scout meeting, and he had an NES in Super Mario Brothers, and it just floored me. Like, I couldn't believe the graphic fidelity of the game and just the style of the game and everything about it just wowed me. And that was the point where, you know, I started begging my parents for an NES. And luckily, they didn't hold out for long, but, but it was a hard find initially. And, yeah, that was the point where it's like, oh my gosh.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Video games are back. Right? Like, there was the crash that happened. I hadn't been playing anything, and then now video games are back. So I wanna I wanna get back into them as much as possible because the graphics looked better than anything on computer.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Like, forget these graphic adventures, King's Quest games. Like, I'd much rather play Mario. So that was a big one. And after that, I think, you know, I was there for I was at the e 3 where Mario 64 got unveiled, and that was a big moment to see that and to see the analog control.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. What a cool experience.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. That was interesting. Yeah. Be at that E3 and play that. And but I think it wasn't until, like, Zelda Ocarina of Time where I really saw the power of what 3 d games could do.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Like, I never really thought 3 d games were all that impressive. Mario 64 was excellent, but then you got a lot of, like, clones of that style that were okay, but they didn't really have the depth. And then Ocarina of Time came out, and that was really something to get excited about. And, actually, that game is why I'm into the Zelda series at all, now because I think 3 d Zelda is really where things kicked off and got amazing. And, I stayed up it came out right before Thanksgiving.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I bought my copy, and I was up until 4 AM on Sunday, after Thanksgiving, like, playing and finishing Ocarina of Time. Like, I I had not for a long time, I had not played a game for, like, that that religiously in that many days straight, where, all I did was that. But Ocarina of Time came out, and it just felt like I had to finish that game in the 1st weekend or I wouldn't finish it at all.
Kyle Starr:I don't even know if I got past, like, the first the the kid area of, or or the kid portion of the game in the 1st week weekend, let alone month. That's, quite impressive.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. Yeah. I used to I used to guide.
Kyle Starr:Okay. I was a book I was gonna ask. That's if you weren't, yeah. If you did hadn't, you were certainly destined to to be in games at that point. That was your
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah.
Kyle Starr:Yeah. Deal.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And then, another big game another big gaming moment for me was when Sea of Thieves came out. I'm a big fan of Sea of Thieves, which is rare's open world, shared world, pirate adventure game, and that game really showed me that video games can be much more of a, like, social experience and also, like, just to you can log in to a game and not know what's gonna happen. And you can go on an adventure with your friends, and it could just evolve from there. And I've met so many people who are now real friends through that game that had never I'd never had that experience before now, and I'd never played a game. So So we're going on 5 years for Sea of Thieves.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I've never played a game like that every week, like, constantly, consistently, like like that game. So, yeah, I think I'm over 4000 hours in that game now, and
Kyle Starr:Oh my gosh.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:It's, it became quite an addiction for a little while. Yeah.
Kyle Starr:The word addiction, though, I mean, is it is that I mean, is it necessarily a bad thing at that point? I mean, it seems like you're this is fulfilling something for you.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. I mean, I think it was fulfilling. I think it was an addiction game. And but it also, like, made me think about games as a way to build a community around something. Right?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Like, I enjoyed interacting with the Sea of Thieves community so much that I thought, you know, any game can have or should have this type of open, welcoming community that, anyone can jump in and feel like they're gonna find someone worth playing with or that they're they're not less than anybody else. Right? And there are a lot of, like, first person shooters, a lot of competitive multiplayer games that don't have that feeling, and I felt like, here's a game that's doing this. Like, why don't other games do that? Like, I'd love to join the community for another game that I'm totally into that is that gives me that same feeling.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:So even, like, working on humanity, and that has a user generated content piece, like, I am trying to advocate for building that kind of community around humanity. And can we attract a type of player who will create levels or even just play play levels that'll come back and, you know, find something about the enhanced Discord community that they really enjoy and, like, find a place where they feel like they're welcomed. So
Kyle Starr:Yeah. I was gonna ask that about humanity. I mean, that seems like the user generated content, you know I don't know if you would call it a game not games as as service, but like a live service type of game. But you have that that sort of community that's around like, hey. You all build these things and let other players play them and you saw that with, like, Mario Maker and whatnot.
Kyle Starr:And some of those, games actually take off beyond just the community itself. You start seeing people post their levels on social media and very unique things start happening or unique things that can happen within the game end up being shared on social media can tend to go viral and whatnot because of how unique this game is or what it's allowing a user to do and how creative people can be with it. You saw this with Breath of the Wild. Again, you've seen this with Mario Maker and, there's countless others. Is there any part of you all at AdHance that are hoping that that might be something that happens?
Kyle Starr:Or is there a social aspect to this, like, so social sharing, or is it all within the game itself?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Absolutely. I mean, there is some social sharing that's going to happen within our Discord server, and we're trying to figure out how to make it work outside of that too. You do get a stage ID for something that you create that can be shared on social media, but we are thinking of, like, ways to make that even easier and, like, give you a a thumbnail graphic of your stage and things like that. But
Kyle Starr:Got it.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:It's turned out harder than you'd think to to make that kind of thing happen, like and there are a lot of user generated content games that that don't have that, and I understand why now because it's difficult, and there's no sort of out of the box. This is how you do this thing to, you know, use as a template. So we're kind of we're trying things and seeing what works. And I I do hope we did a we did a demo in March at the beginning of March and had an amazing amount of community creations. Just like I I wasn't sure, like, how many people would really get into it, but we were really surprised at how many folks did and what kind of levels they ended up creating, some of which used mechanics we didn't expect and didn't even know were possible.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:So, like, that kind of thing, I'm really excited about, and I I I'm hoping, fingers crossed, that we are able to nurture a community of people who wanna come back all the time and create levels, play levels, and talk about the game. Like, that's the dream for me.
Kyle Starr:So going just quick review of the games that you shared, those moments of awe, those those eye opening games, for you. I I'm I'm counting crystal castles in there because I feel like that's where that's where it all started. Mario 1, possibly Mario 64, but more so, Ocarina of Time for 3 d games, and then Sea of Thieves. And I think all of these have there's a different sort of, appeal to each one of these. Crystal castles being the the moment that you saw what was maybe possible within games, that it's not just that linear experience, that something else can be happening here and seeing somebody else progress in the game.
Kyle Starr:The mystery, I guess, of of what games can can hold within Mario 1 being I have this console sitting in my house. The graphical fidelity is far above, what I have on my PC and I am ready for the future here. This is this is something amazing. Ocarina of Time, we talked about 3 d and what it means means to make a 3 d game. Up until that point, there 3 d had been tried, tested, and and, you know, it was around.
Kyle Starr:It was around in arcades, it was around on the PlayStation, but nobody really nailed it like Nintendo did. It's actually interesting to hear you say Ocarina is the model rather than Mario. I kind of think it the other way around, but to each zone and then see if these being community. So with all of these, there's not one specific thing that really I think you are speaking to, as a reason for your enthusiasm, love, passion of games. Unless you can tell me what that that thing is.
Kyle Starr:Is is there a through line that you see throughout all this? Is there a reason why this is so you know, you get so excited about this stuff?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:There's absolutely a through line, and I think it is the social currency of games, like talking about games with other people, like that person who showed me that trick in Crystal Castles, like and watching somebody else play an arcade game at Chuck E. Cheese and looking at the hint book for Ocarina of Time and, like, talking about that with coworkers and with people on the Internet, and then, you know, a game like Sea of Thieves where I've met people in real life now that I would call my real friends. It's it's I think it's all social. You know, having seen Super Mario Brothers at my friend's house and, you know, trading codes back and forth and talking about the minus world, and here's the code to Mike Tyson with my schoolmates. And, like, to me, video games are not only sort of an outlet for, escaping reality, but enhancing reality and, you know, having a social experience.
Kyle Starr:I it's it's I'm glad you say that, and I think that may not be, a surprise to folks who, you know, are very passionate about games and follow the industry and play a lot. But I think outside of of those walls, a lot of people still see games as a very solitary isolated experience even if it's multiplayer and whatnot. You're sitting in your room or, you know, wherever, hunkered down in front of a TV or or a computer, you know, monitor or something like that. I think there's there you're right. There is so much more to this, that it carries a conversation.
Kyle Starr:Everything you just said aligns very closely with my own experience. I mean, it was the fun of sharing your experience on the schoolyard. It was talking about that at your, you know, at your job with your coworkers who might also be playing the same games that you are, and sharing that enthusiasm there. And then also you have communities on Twitter or Discord or Mastodon or whatever who are sharing their enthusiasm. Or, oh my gosh.
Kyle Starr:Look at this cool thing I did, or did you know you could do this? Or now there's just so many games that it's people talking about these experiences that you may never have, but you get a chance to watch and see and go, wow. That looks like a really cool experience. I don't have the time in my life to maybe play that game or or, you know, but it's there, and that looks like a very cool novel thing. And you can take from that and apply it to maybe other experiences or or, creative endeavors in your world too.
Kyle Starr:So Yeah. I think that's that's a I mean, that's a great reason. The the social aspect of games is certainly there. It is far, far from, I think, a very solitary experience. It can be, as you said, an escape, but I think there underneath that, there is it generates such a a a much larger conversation.
Kyle Starr:And now a conversation that permeates into film and TV and and all kinds of stuff. I mean, not just making shows about games, but you hear, I don't know if you watch Ted Lasso, but in Ted Lasso, they dropped a nod to Breath of the Wild. And there's I mean and Wario. There's a couple different, video game references there. It's on Saturday Night Live and Pedro Pascal, you know, you know, as Mario or whatever it is.
Kyle Starr:There's just all kinds of of, you know, narrative. And and I think a lot of that too is probably you know, it's just a medium that we grew up with, and now it's permeating other lives is that that generation gets older and is working in these professional capacities. It's obviously there. But, yeah, it is it is part of our social fabric, I think, at this point. Yeah.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I think so. And I I feel like I'm lucky in that my parents encouraged me to play games. Like, they didn't they limited my screen time, but they thought it was, you know, a hobby. They had hobbies. I have video games as a hobby, so they never discouraged me from playing.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And, you know, when I started working with other people who play video games, there was definitely no discouragement that I should stop playing games. And, you know, everybody that I've known all my friends play games, and I've never had relationships where it's been, like, looked down upon. And I feel very lucky about that because I do know folks who have had these sort of nerdy, geeky passions that get looked down upon by their significant other or whatnot, and I never understood that. Like like, even if I'm not into something, like, why would I wanna discourage something that makes this other person happy? Like, I don't see the benefit of that.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:So Yep. You know, you can be in anything. If you're into reality television or if you're into The Real Housewives of Atlanta, like, you know, you do you. Like, who am I to judge that?
Kyle Starr:So yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Are you excited about anything, in the future, like the future of games? Is there something that you you're thinking about?
Kyle Starr:Like, maybe it's the social aspect we're talking about here, but, I I guess the question is, what excites you about the future of video games?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. I so I it's funny. Like, I always look at whenever there's a generation shift, you get the people who are like, oh, man. Games are never gonna look better than this. And I feel like I have I have been through enough of those generational shifts where I don't think I have ever said that actually because I always know that, yes, it's going to look better than this.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Like, PlayStation 5 looks great now. It is going to look like, there is going to come a time probably not far off where things look better, and I can't wait for that time. Like, I am excited about that time where things continue to look better and better and better. And, you know, back in the day, we would play these games, and it would be our imaginations, like, filling in the gaps for why things don't look realistic. And things have just gotten more and more realistic looking, and, you know, we have VR now and, which I love.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Now now that VR is of a higher enough frame rate where I don't get motion sickness playing, it's, it's fantastic. But I'm what I'm excited about in games is just seeing that progression. Like, how far can we go with things? And, you know, video games for me are all about being able to experience something that I would never do in real life and, you know, whether that's be a pirate or whether that's in, like, a social deduction game or, you know, maybe I'm in an RPG, like, playing something or, you know, a survival horror type of thing, something I would never actually wanna be involved with in having that experience. Right?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. Like, I I love that for games. It can be such a emotional experience as well. Like, you can have games that make you feel a certain way, and you can have a connection with them in ways you don't have with other mediums. And I think that's probably what excites me the most about games and just for the future of games.
Kyle Starr:That's great. Is it other than humanity, are there games you're looking forward to?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I try to not look too far into the future. Like, I like to be surprised by by games that I don't even know are coming out. But I'm excited about, like, Spider Man 2, And I think that'll be fantastic. I'm looking forward to Tears of the Kingdom in a big, big way as well, in in part because of all of the sort of ways that you can freestyle and create your own vehicles and weapons and things like that. I think that's great.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:And even though I'm not the type of person that loves crafting or cooking in game, like, you say crafting or building to me, and I'm like, I'm out. Forget it. Pace building, not interested. But there's something about this sort of, I'm running around Hyrule, and I'm making these weapons out of 2 things, like, that excites me in way in ways that other crafting games don't. So, so, yeah, Breath of the Wild well, Tears of the Kingdom and, Spider Man 2 are probably the biggest name things, but I'm sure there's going to be a lot of little indie projects that come out that I'm gonna be interested into.
Kyle Starr:It's never ending. There's just so much. So much just keeps coming around. I need to play There
Chris "CJ" Johnston:is.
Kyle Starr:Everybody's talking about dredge right now and I haven't touched it. That's like the good thing.
Kyle Starr:I've gotten to
Kyle Starr:a point now where I'm like, I'm just gonna wait to see, like, what, what is popping off. I can see all watch all these trailers and see all this the new stuff that's coming. And it's great to your point, like but looking too far ahead, it's, I don't know what's going to be worth my time or while. And at some point, it's like, I'm just gonna wait to see what everybody's talking about, and then I'll jump on the bandwagon. Like, no harm doing that.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Absolutely. Yeah. Or use, like, Game Pass or PlayStation Plus. Like, what's new on there? And play that.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Like, I like to play, all types of games except for sports games. I loved the arcade sports games of the late nineties and early 2000, but since everything's gone, more simulation have kinda dropped out of that. But I find I'm an omnivorous gamer. I'll just play everything. And I don't finish a lot of games, but I still love playing whatever is coming out.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:So, like, I have so many games up in the air, like Hi Fi Rush and Dead Space, and, Dredge is another one that I'm going through. And I just started the Final Fantasy Pixel remasters, and there's all these games. And then Tears of the Kingdom's coming out, and you have Advance Wars, reboot camp, and all this stuff is just like, I can't believe how many games we have and how many of different genres and, made for different types of players that we have. It's I think it's truly a golden age of gaming. Like, I know a lot of people are down on live service games and all that, but, but I think we are are living in an amazing time for games.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:There's just so much choice and so many good entries in all types of genres.
Kyle Starr:And so many places to play too. That's another theme that comes up on the show quite a bit is the prevalence of, you know, we all have a phone in our pocket, and they're just so much there. There's so much good stuff, whether you're into mobile gaming, quote, unquote, or not. Like, there are amazing experiences on there. It's not just, you know, Angry Birds and Candy Crush.
Kyle Starr:It's, you know, playing Florence or sword and sorcery or, you know, you name it. There's a a game that, got me through, when my when my daughter came. You know, there's endless nights. It's just every 2 hours I'd get up with her and feed her and rock her to sleep and all that sort of stuff. And now I'm feeding the oh, Loco Looper is a game that it's just a puzzle simple puzzle game, but is stitching together, like a a train track that would be a perfect loop, basically.
Kyle Starr:It's, starts simple, and then it gets incredibly difficult. It's it's very, yeah, it's it's a very good game. But, again, there's just so much out there and in so many places you can play. No longer do we have to make a trip to the arcade, right, and hope we have enough quarters to to get us through an hour.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:I love it. I really love it. I think, yeah, there's no better time for games. Like, on EGM, we did, like, a couple different covers where it's like, there's too many games. And I look at that, and it's like you fast forward to now, and there's really now we have too many games.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yes. Like, 98 was a great time for games. Like, some of those years were great, but, man, we are just, like, spoiled for choice on any platform, anywhere you wanna play. There's so much stuff. I I think we're lucky.
Kyle Starr:Yep. On that note, unless there's anything else you wanna bring up, before we we close out, I I think that's a it's a it's a very positive place to end this, this episode. CJ, where can people find you if they want more, more CJ, in their life or and what should they be looking out for in terms of, I guess, humanity, which is your big your big project right now?
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Yeah. Well, you can find me at Super PAC on Twitter, and I'm also at Super PAC on mastodon dot social. And I host the player 1 podcast every week, and that's at playeronepodcast.comorponepodcast on Twitter. And Enhance is EnhanceExp Enhance underscore EXP on Twitter, and then the Humanity account is Humanity Game. Humanity comes out on PlayStation 5, PlayStation 4, and Steam on May 16th, and, it's also a VR game.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:It's a VR optional game. And, yeah, I think that's about it.
Kyle Starr:Awesome. Well, I again, I really appreciate you coming on the show. It's a great opportunity for us to to finally actually meet and chat. You know, we've been I've been meaning to do that for a long while now. So, again, I appreciate you hopping on, over to Y Button and, and talking to me about why you care about video games.
Chris "CJ" Johnston:Thanks very much, Kyle.
Kyle Starr:CJ was such a wonderful guy to chat with and he's a great follow on Mastodon and Twitter with lots of solid takes and insights. I wish him and the team had enhanced good fortune with humanity. Reviews for the game have been overwhelmingly positive.
Kyle Starr:I still can't get over the idea of creating a self published gaming zine. It goes to show that if you love and want something enough, sometimes you just gotta do it yourself.
Kyle Starr:If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. The easiest thing to do might be to share the website y button dot online. It includes links to most podcast platforms. If you wanna get in touch, feel free to reach out to why button podcast atgmail.com or on mastodon@ybutton@mastodon.social. You can find me on Mastodon at kylestarr@mastodon.social.
Kyle Starr:This episode was produced by the wonderful AJ Filari. Our theme song was written by Child Star, which is me, featuring my friend Scott Wilkie. You can find it on all streaming platforms. Thanks again for listening to why button. And remember, when you press why, ask why.
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